14 November 2011

WEEK ONE. conversation by clair and simon

"What is love?

To live it and know it is very easy, but to put it into words is difficult.  It is like asking a fish "What is the sea?" the fish will say "This is the sea. it is all around, all over". But if you insist - please define the sea, dont just indicate" - then the problem becomes really difficult for the fish.

Osho from his book 'sex matters".
 ~ ~ ~

actually, the fish wouldnt mind and the fish wouldnt care.  he or she would not see the difference between him or herself and the sea.  and he or she would not know or think about whether she or he is a he or a she ;)   how clever of the fish....something humans take years of meditation to master  ! ;)

non human animals are clearly enlightened...and modest too! ;)

Osho's fish is a talking, thinking fish. If a fish can think it can have thoughts about itself. If it can do this it could come to believe that it is those thoughts and was therefore separate from the sea it was swimming in.

If you can think you can become lost in your thoughts, construct a hell out of them. But would you really rather be mindless?



i wouldnt rather what i am not. and the fish wouldnt rather what she is not.  i domt think about preferance, its about what is natural and being that...

i would like to think and not to make a hell out of my thinkings....i was imagining a couple of das ago, that the world was like a computer game where we all have special powers and tools and all all have special demons and dark sides where the purpose of the game one might imagine would be to nuture the special powers and dertimate the dark side....some how it doenst always work out like that.  

wish i was me.
There is no hell like an old hell.
To become enlightened is to escape from illusion. Animals know neither enlightenment or illusion. Not that this makes them worse than us, or indeed better.

I would like to play your computer game but it is quite different to life. Darkness and light can't not be entirely separated from each other Darkness contains light within it and vice versa. You can not defeat your darkness, in the same way as a priest can not become pure by becoming celibate/ denying his lust.  
Thoughts don't always lead to Hell but there can be no Hell without thought. Thoughts are fine so long as you do not think you are your thoughts. You are you Clair, you just aren't who you think you are.

mmm! 'there can be no hell without thoughts' ..but .what about physical pain, is that reliant on thought to make it real or able to be felt?  ... 
exactly, unlike a computer game where things are divided into good and desirable and bad and undesirable, lifes light is reliant on its darkness.  is that why darkness exists perhapes...to strenghten the light?

why do you say that animals are living in illusion?  i would say they are not living an illusion and thus they might well be enlightened.
i met a young calf from morroco.  she was black and white and very tame.  the sun was strong.  she shaded under a fig tree.  she hadnt met me before.  i hadnt met her.  her rope was twisted around her leg.  we freed it when she moved one way and i moved it the other.  i would have said that she was full of meditaion. 

Thoughts can make you feel lost and separate. Pain can not. But the thoughts you may have about your pain could. You can build a hell out of thoughts but not out of pain. 

I said animals do not know illusion, not that they are living within it. To become enlightened is to escape from illusion. Animals can not become enlightened because they aren't trapped in an illusion in the first place. Though what enlightened people and animals have in common, I've heard it said, is full awareness of the present moment. 

I don't think light and darkness exist for any particular reason though your reason is as good as any. 

In what way did the calf seem full of meditation?
the calf was very present and very full of peace.  her life, to date i belive, had been fair to her and had not predisposed her to the fear that english cows experince.  she was living in a little morrocan garden with two other cows and was looked after by the family who lived there.... and she didnt have to get in the 'correct' posture or position, cross her legs or tilt her hooves in the right direction  to meditate ;)

It genuinely does seem like a beautiful, tranquil scene. But can a cow, or any life form, meditate without deepening its breathing, observing its thoughts and/ or visualising a golden light, etc? Do cows know how to do any of these things?  Cows don't need to meditate because they can't get lost in their minds. Humans can respect other life forms without having to see them in the way we see ourselves. x

i absolutely agree X

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